Build for Tomorrow with Jason Feifer Ep #128

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f you were one of the many network marketers who grew explosively during the pandemic, only to be dropped back down to earth once things got back to ‘normal,’ then this episode is for you. This week Kristen welcomes the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur magazine, podcast host, and author of the new book “Build for Tomorrow,” Jason Feifer.

If you were one of the many network marketers who grew explosively during the pandemic, only to be dropped back down to earth once things got back to ‘normal,’ then this episode is for you. This week Kristen welcomes the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur magazine, podcast host, and author of the new book “Build for Tomorrow,” Jason Feifer. 

Jason’s here to talk with us about adaptability in the face of adversity and how learning to get curious can lead to growth. Strap in as they talk about these key points:

  • How “reconsidering the impossible” in your business can be an opportunity for growth
  • What happens when you assign success to circumstances and luck
  • Jason shares an exercise to help zone into your identity and mission as a business owner
  • Explanation of the concept of  horizontal thinking and vertical thinking

Change is inevitable.  And learning to adapt to the current business landscape is essential. If we gained anything from the past two years, it’s the knowledge that using adversity as a stepping stone to innovation can lead to growth in areas you didn’t know were possible. So next time you’re panicked over a downturn in this post-pandemic world, get curious and see where those changes take you.

If you’d like to get on the list to pre-order Jason’s new book “Build for Tomorrow,” click here.

And if you’d like to follow along on Instagram, you can find him at @heyfeifer 

The Book Bonus is back just in time to get in on the last 90 Day Challenge of the year! When you join the Social Selling Academy between now and midnight CT on October 3rd, you’ll receive a free copy of the Goal Getter Workbook sent right to your door. Join now by clicking here.

Thanks for listening! Do you have a question about network marketing? Kristen can help! Drop your question here, and she just might answer it live on the podcast:

Connect with Kristen:

If you’re ready to learn the simple process of running your social selling business online, you have to check out Kristen’s live group coaching program! The Social Selling Academy:

Do you have a business full of customers and almost no builders? You’re in need of a reboot! Learn the three skills you can learn that will completely change your recruitment game. Check it out here.

Transcript for Episode #128 Build for Tomorrow with Jason Feifer:

Kristen Boss (00:05):  Welcome to Purposeful Social Selling with Kristen Boss. I’m your host, Kristen Boss. I’m a mindset and business coach with more than 15 years experience in both the product and service based industry. I believe that social selling is the best business model for people wanting to make an impact while they make serious income. This is the podcast for the social seller, who is tired of feeling inauthentic in their business and desires to find a more purposeful and profitable way of growing their business in today’s social media landscape. In this podcast, you will learn what it takes to grow a sustainable business through impactful and social marketing. It’s time to ditch the hustle and lead from the heart. Let me show you the new way.

Kristen Boss (00:48):  All right. So Jason, welcome to the podcast. I’m excited to talk about your book that’s going to be releasing in September Build for Tomorrow, and I’m excited to have this conversation about the concepts of your book and a little bit about your career, because this is so incredibly relevant to my audience. You know, just in the last few years, we’ve had to kind of do a double pivot. I feel like everybody is tired of hearing the word pivot from the pandemic, but we’ve almost had to do a double pivot in the sense like we had to adjust when the pandemic hit us in 2020, and now we’re in the middle of another pivot that I think people are really having to grapple with right now. And it’s the post pandemic era of business. And as entrepreneurs, we are known problem solvers. So we are constantly having to adjust and adapt and that’s kind of your expertise, right?

Jason Feifer (01:38):  Yeah. It’s the thing that I see all the time I came to this realization during the pandemic, which was that everyone was going through change in the same way, but at different times, that was a super interesting thing about the pandemic was you got to watch everybody react to the same change, but they all reacted differently and it was worth paying attention who was able to navigate it. Well, what exactly were they doing? And what can we all learn? Buy it? And so I came to, I, I, I sort of plotted it out. I found that everybody moves through change in these four phases, panic adaptation, new normal, and wouldn’t go back. Wouldn’t go back being that moment where you say, I have something so new and valuable that I wouldn’t want to go back to a time before I had this. And I’m telling you everybody, it does not matter how successful you already are, how smart you are. Everybody goes through these four phases. Everybody feels that panic. The difference is how fast they move through it. And so I wanted to understand, well, how, how are people doing it?

Kristen Boss (02:42):  Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. You said it, you know, and I kind of said this too, with my audience. It just feels like the pandemic kind of leveled out the playing field in a lot of ways. It was just like, okay, literally every entrepreneur is being handled, handed the same circumstance. What are you going to do? And we all have like, we cannot control our circumstances, but we can absolutely control how we respond to circumstances, how we innovate, how we get curious, how we solve problems. And like, just in the most tangible, simple way I saw this was how I saw restaurants adapt in my local area. Like I saw some restaurants that tried to like ride it out. Like they closed the doors and then some were like, okay, we’re going to develop like a family style meal. We’re going to go curbside. And we’re going to have, like, these are the meals you can choose from. And those restaurants, they stayed, they stayed in business throughout the entire pandemic. And they were able to reopen when, you know, the world started to open back up. But I watched some that were like unwilling to innovate, unwilling, to change unwilling, to adapt. And, or they just stayed in the panic. Like how often do we see people kind of stuck in the state of panic and never really fully moving out of that?

Jason Feifer (03:51):  Yeah. Yeah. That’s totally right. And what was so fascinating about watching those restaurants is that the ones who made the changes and got through this, didn’t just do it to survive. They often found new strategies, new sources of revenue, new ways to serve people that they’re still using, right? Yes, they have. They have, they have combined the best of the old with the best of the new, and this is something that this is the wouldn’t go back moment. This is the thing that I’m describing, where you reach something where you’re like, there’s a better way to do this. And you know, what’s so wild about this is that if you look at the decisions that people made, the ones who smartly pivoted restaurants are a great example because it’s something that everybody had interacted with and relied upon. But there were, you know, endless variations of this.

Jason Feifer (04:37):  Oftentimes the thing that these companies were doing was not creating something wildly new, not reinventing everything. They were, what I like to call reconsidering the impossible, which is to say that they took these ideas that maybe they had been familiar with before. The idea of curbside or the idea of of, of family style meals is it didn’t come down from Mars. It wasn’t so crazy, right? This was something that they were aware of, but they might have said, you know, not for me or that’s too complicated or too difficult, or that’s not exactly what my people are looking for. And then they were forced to reconsider what they had deemed impossible. I, I, I, I called a lot of people through the pandemic and basically asked them, why is this happening? Why is a moment of disruption, such a opportunity for growth? My favorite answer came from this guy named Brian Burkey.

Jason Feifer (05:34):  He’s a business studies in legal ethics professor at the university of Wharton. I always want to call it the university of Wharton. That’s not it Wharton. And and and he said, he said a crisis forces us to shift the window on the options we’re willing to collectively take seriously. Right. Which is to say, which is to say at any one time, you have an extremely wide band of options, extremely wide band, but you create a little window and then you look through it and you see only the option through that little window and moments of crisis forces to shift that window, to look at other options, to take things seriously that we hadn’t been taken seriously before. And that is where innovation begins.

Kristen Boss (06:13):  Oh man, that’s so good. I love that quote too. And I was also kind of thinking of Ryan Holiday’s quote, like in his book, The Obstacle is the Way sure. Its just kind of like when you look at obstacles as opportunities suddenly now you’re using a different part of your brain and you’re able to access curiosity and innovation and really see things from different angles. And what I’ve noticed is I love, I love that you said the last part is like the never go back moment. because I think in the moment of panic, all you can think of is like, how can I get things back to status quo? I’m so terrified right now. I just want to bring things back to status quo, operate in my comfort zone because I know what to do, but now everything feels uncertainty or it feels very uncertain.

Kristen Boss (06:53):  And I want certainty and this idea of like getting to the point where, where you’re like actually now that I’m here, I never would go back. And I’m so glad I did this, but in that panic people really have to kind of evaluate, okay, how long am I going to freak out about this? Or am I willing to get curious and look for other opportunities? See what’s possible. But I do notice that sometimes, sometimes when people panic, I feel like they almost fall into nostalgia. Like oh, I wish it was easier like that. And they just ruminate on what was instead of like really dealing with, okay, that was what was now. It is what is, and I have to make some decisions, right?

Jason Feifer (07:32):  That’s right. You want to hear a mindblower about nostalgia? So I got curious about people’s experience of nostalgia and I was watching it through the pandemic in multiple ways, right. There was that nostalgia in the beginning for how things were pre pandemic. But then weirdly, do you remember this? Once the vaccine started rolling out and people started leaving their homes, there started to be this expression of nostalgia for the experience of lockdown where people were like, but it was a simpler time where I didn’t have to go running around and where I spent more time with my family and I was like, guys, literally a couple months ago, you hated that you were, you were, you hate and for good reason, we were all locked away. Okay. So anyway, so I was very curious. what is up with nostalgia and why do we experience this?

Jason Feifer (08:17):  So I, I called two memory researchers and I learned this fascinating thing. It begins with a scientific term called fading affect bias. Here’s a fading affect biases. Fading affect bias is the phenomenon in which the emotions attached to bad memories fade much faster than the emotions attached to good memories. So it’s not that we forget bad things, but we forget the emotions attached to them. We can’t summon it as much. We don’t feel it as much. And there’s good biological reason for this. The people I talked to said, look, your memory is not designed like a hard drive it’s it’s purpose. Right? It’s purpose is not to, to hold on to information. Its purpose is actually to help you move forward. Yes. Yeah. Like the whole point of memory is to help you move forward memory. Even though you’re thinking, remembering things from the past, the function of it is to move you into the future because what, what the hell are we, if not able to move forward?

Kristen Boss (09:10):  Well, great example of that is like women having more than one child that’s as they just, as they distanced themselves from childbirth, you’re like, oh, the pain wasn’t so bad and this is why women continue to have babies.

Jason Feifer (09:22):  That’s exactly right. That’s totally, totally right. Right. Why on earth? Would you ever do that again? If you could like summon the experience of it. And so, so this is, this is what we do and this is what our brains are are built for. And as a result, it’s worth first recognizing that the things that you’re nostalgic for, you’re nostalgic for, because you have literally forgotten all the bad, bad, bad stuff and bad feelings of that time, all you’re left with are the good feelings. And then it gets crazier because, so I was talking to this guy named Felipe Dard he’s a memory researcher at duke university. And he was telling me that the parts of your brain that are associated with memory are very closely related to the parts of your brain that are associated with imagination.

Jason Feifer (10:08):  And so what you do, what were you going to say? Were you going to?

Kristen Boss (10:13):  Well, I was going to say that makes sense with that makes sense with PTSD, because think about it, like it’s like PTSD, it’s like they will relive the experience even though they’re not physically in the experience and then it manifests the pain. So it’s almost like they’re reliving it. I’m like, that makes a lot of sense where memories and imagination collide.

Jason Feifer (10:30):  They collide that’s right. And look trauma can do, can do terrible things to your brain. And so so like, what I’m talking about is really, is really kind of most applicable to a, a kind of non traumatized experience. Right. But, but but okay, when you remember something, you do not actually remember something as if you were watching a video of it because our brain doesn’t work that way when you haven’t experienced and you remember it, what your brain does is it actually breaks it up into a million tiny little pieces. And then every time that you remember it have the experience of remembering it, you reassemble those pieces in your brain into what is hopefully a coherent hole. Philippe described it to me like a paleontologist, trying to reassemble a dinosaur after finding tons of fragments of bone. But the thing is that there are things missing.

Jason Feifer (11:18):  There are going to be things missing from that reassembly. And you’re going to fill those things in without realizing it with your imagination, which is to say that the things that you remember from the past are a combination of the things that you actually remember and your own imagination of how it went, but you’re experiencing it as a memory. The reason I’m telling you all of this is that when you catch yourself feeling nostalgic for a tie, you have to remember that what you are actually remembering is only partially what happened. It has been stripped away of the negative emotions associated with bad experiences. And it has been filled in with your own imagination. So do not sit around and say, those times were better and therefore I cannot move forward or I’m not interested in whatever’s coming next. Because what I want to do is recreate what came before, because what you are remembering did not exist in the way that you’re remembering it. And that, that, that should help you move forward.

Kristen Boss (12:09):  That was so good. And also, like I say this too, and it makes sense where like our imagination fills in the gaps is it’s not just imagination. I also think we romanticize it. Of course, like it’s this romanticized idea. And it’s like, and nostalgia, I think can be dangerous for business owners because then we’re believing the best days are behind us instead of our better days ahead of us. And we’re not, we are believing like we’re done innovating, we’re done creating, we’re done doing amazing things. And I’m like, well, that’s what happens when we’re nostalgic. It’s like, oh, remember my best work and my best days. And I do think right now with my audience, I think they are thinking like, man, in the height of, you know, 2020 in the pandemic, it was, so it was so easy. Then it was so simple to have a business then because you know, the majority of my audience sells products online. And so they’re thinking, man, it’s just so easy. Everybody was buying online then. So they romanticize and long for their business, from the height of the pandemic instead of like, but now I’m in a post pandemic world and now I’m being called. I have to adapt. I can either stay stuck in my nostalgia and wishing for the older times simpler times, or I just, I have to adapt. I have to make changes. Right.

Jason Feifer (13:20):  Yes. And you know what, you know, what your audience should do when you’re feeling that way, when you’re looking back and you’re like, oh, things were so much easier. I want to really challenge you to try to write that. Like, like try to make a list of all the stuff that was actually extremely hard and that really sucked and all the major setbacks it’s worth remembering that stuff. You know, it’s so funny. We, we, we want to, we always want to, we want to own our failures and we want to own our successes, but we, we so often end up thinking that we are the product of a certain particular moment in time that our success was actually driven by the circumstances that we happen to luck into. I I’ve experienced this so many times, you know, I mean, I, I I’ve had a career magazines and I remember the first time I got a big job offer.

Jason Feifer (14:11):  I was at Boston magazine. I was an editor of Boston magazine. I was in my mid twenties and I got a job offer to work at men’s health to move to New York, to work for this national magazine. And my first instinct was to say, I, I don’t know that I can do it. And the reason for that is because I’ve had such a good experience at Boston magazine. I made friends, I did work that people respected. That must be because of the circumstances of Boston magazine. That must be because there were these special people there at this particular moment and they helped me. And I knew the city and I don’t think I can replicate that in, in men’s health. And so maybe I shouldn’t try, but I was in my mid twenties and I pushed myself and I did it. And then the next job offer I got a couple years later was at fast company.

Jason Feifer (14:55):  And wouldn’t, you know, I did it again. I said, you know, I had a good experience at men’s health and I made friends and people respected my work. But I think that that was just the circumstances of men’s health. I showed up at the right time. I had the right boss. I, I don’t know that I can do it again. And the thing is that like, when you go back and look at these experiences that you’re thinking of is good and then force yourself to write down all the things that were bad, you realize, oh my gosh, there are all these things that I had to overcome that I totally forgot. Right. There were these, these things where I showed up and I didn’t know what the hell I was doing. And I wrote this story that got killed. And I, there was this piece that I was trying to edit and I didn’t know how to do it.

Jason Feifer (15:27):  And like another editor had to take it over and I felt stupid and lonely. And this, there was this one time where this like writer yelled at me and that we didn’t talk for a month. And, and I forget all that stuff, but you know what, it’s useful to remember that stuff, because what that means is that this isn’t about circumstance. This isn’t about, oh, it was just easier to sell online at this at this time. No, this was because you are smart and you are able, and you navigated challenging things and you turned them to your advantage. And that is the core skillset that you have that you can turn to again. But you just have to know that you have it and trust that you have it when you go forward into things that you’re unfamiliar with.

Kristen Boss (16:05):  I am so glad you talked about that nuance of like, are you assigning your success to circumstance or who you were being in the circumstance because you can look at these things and think like, well, everybody was buying online and people were locked down and they were forced to shop online. And that’s why I had all the success instead of. And what happens is you’ve made success happen to you. You’ve made it a matter of luck you’ve made. And the problem with that is now that it’s circumstantial, it’s all these things that line up and feel totally out of my control. Now, it feels impossible to replicate. And now my success becomes a fluke and now it becomes a I now we’re almost an, a posture of waiting for circumstances to align in our favor instead of, well, where am I an agent of change myself? Where do I have my own decisions and choice and how I show up and all of those things. And I do see people right now because circumstances have changed. They’re in a little bit of a state of helplessness because they’re like, well, in the height of the pandemic, all these things were working for me. And now post pandemic, the circumstances are not the same. And therefore the, the level of success I had is not accessible to me anymore. Right. And that’s a dangerous way to go, right?

Jason Feifer (17:15):  Yeah. A completely dangerous way to go because you lose sight of it. And because you end up associating all of your success with things that were not in your control, rather than thinking about the things that are in your control, like, what is your core value that you carry forward that can be applied in all sorts of ways? I, I, I hear versions of what you’re describing from very successful people. I I’ll give you an example of just something that comes to mind as you’re talking. Do you know who Stacy London is? Do you remember that name?

Kristen Boss (17:41):  Name sounds familiar.

Jason Feifer (17:42):  So she was the co-host of a very popular show called what not to wear yes. For many years. Yes. Yeah. So it’s, liket show where, so Stacy had a Stacy’s become a friend of mine. Stacy started a magazines, and then she got cast on this show alongside this, a guy named Carson, Clinton, Clinton, I think. Well, whatever. Anyway. So, but cause I didn’t, I, I didn’t become friends with him. I just became friends with Stacy, so I’ve forgotten his name. But anyway so she had this show, it ran for like 10 years, and then afterwards she had a, another show and a nice television career, but eventually the opportunities started. She started a near 50, the opportunities started to dry up. And meanwhile, she was she had become really passionate about about helping women through menopause. It was happening to her and she was talking about it more.

Jason Feifer (18:38):  And she tried to pitch a television show about it. Studios were like, absolutely not, not interested in this in any way. And and Stacy was feeling very, very dejected and she had started to do some beta testing for a company that produces products. It’s called state of state of menopause for, you know, for, for women with menopause. And and then the company came to her and said, Hey, actually, do you want to buy this company and run it? And at first Stacy said, no, because I, I don’t know how to do that. Right. Like, I don’t know how to do that at all. Like my, the, the thing that I know how to do is be on television. That’s, that’s the only thing I know how to do. And and then she stepped back and she thought, well, wait a second, is the thing that I know how to do being on television, or is the thing that I know how to do something more core is the value that I have actually, something that translates that, that, that can move across medium and across audience and across purpose.

Jason Feifer (19:35):  And she realized that, you know what her value is not. She called it her core truth. To me, she’s like my core truth is not being on television. My core truth is being a truth teller to people that I, I, I, I, I speak to people in a way in which I reach them. And I talk about the things that they care about and that they’re uncomfortable with and that they need someone to guide them through. And I did that on television. And I can do that as the CEO of a company too, because that’s exactly what the CEO of a company should do is they should understand their audience and they should know how to serve them. And they should be unafraid of engaging with them in ways that are going to be most valuable to them. Even if it’s a little uncomfortable, that is my truth. And that is what enabled her to then become the owner of this company. That’s what she’s now doing. And I love that moment because Stacy went from doing one thing to a completely different thing. And what she ultimately needed to do was identify this thing that is so core to her. So core that a million different opportunities could bloom from it. The more that you really zero in on and identify what your core value is, the more that you can pivot around it without ever feeling lost.

Kristen Boss (20:47):  You know what, that’s part of my story too. I was a hair stylist for 15 years and I was, I was on the path to doing like runway work and editorial and fashion work. And I was a great, like, technically a fantastic and great stylist, 15 years, but it got to the point where I’m like, what are my core values? What, what translates across, you know, I’m like, I’ve been listening to people for 15 years telling me, literally people tell their hair, stylists, everything. I used to have a joke being like how we are not subpoenaed in more criminal course cases. I do not know because we, the things we know.

Kristen Boss (21:19):  Yeah. We, we know it all. We know it all. We are the first to know pregnancies, all those things. And so, but I was like, I listen to people, people come to me for insights and for direction, and I motivate people. And so of course it made sense where I became a podcaster, an author, a speaker, and a coach. It was what I was, it was still the core values and the core skills of like, I understand humans, I understand their, wants their desires, their needs. And speaking to that, and I don’t, I’d be curious if you do this, but I do it quite often. Sometimes I just strip away, like, okay, if I couldn’t coach, if I couldn’t podcast and I couldn’t write, what would I do? And like taking away everything I know, and always kind of going through mental exercises, like if it all went away, what would I do? And what skills do I still have? And it’s actually, I think it keeps me sharp and innovating all the time.

Jason Feifer (22:07):  So I, I do do that. And I actually came up with a little exercise to help myself. So I’ll tell you what it is. Yeah. So I, you know, I, I started as a newspaper reporter. That was the first job I had out of college. I loved it. I always wanted to be a newspaper reporter. People said, people come up to me at a party. What do you do? I’m a newspaper reporter. But eventually I came to realize that being a newspaper reporter a lot of things that are bad about it, the hours suck, but also newspaper is not stable. And yet I, I, I had this crisis in which I thought, well, if I’m not working at a newspaper that I’m not a newspaper reporter, and then what am I right? Like if you identify too closely with basically the output of your work, then if the output of your work changes, then you lose your identity.

Jason Feifer (22:53):  That’s very scary. Eventually I did lose these new, I did leave newspapers. I became a magazine editor. I basically went through that entire process all over again, identifying as a magazine editor, then wondering if magazines were for me, but what do I do? And then I started meeting, I became editor in chief of entrepreneur magazine. I started meeting entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs have this totally different way of thinking. They talk about the thing that they’re doing, not in terms of the output of their work, but in terms of their mission. And I mean, I remember talking to the Greg, the CEO of food stores, this baking mix. Well, they baking mix at the time and they’ve since expanded, but they were going through a big change. This was pandemic related. They were going to roll out these new products, redefine the company. Wasn’t just going to be baking mixes.

Jason Feifer (23:39):  You can find their baking mixes and like whole foods or whatever. And and, and then they had to put everything on hold. And I said to Greg, I said, is this a bummer to have to make this change? And he said, you know, it’s not because you go back to why we’re in business to begin with our mission is to bring joy to people with sweet baked goods. You know, it doesn’t really matter what the sweet baked goods are. It doesn’t really matter how we do it. Just the mission is to bring joy to people and that liberates him to do that in any way possible. Anyway. So I, I started to think through all of this, well, what is my mission? What’s my core. And how do I get there? So I came up with this little mental exercise. So here it goes. Actually you want to play along?

Kristen Boss (24:22):  Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it.

Jason Feifer (24:23):  Okay, great. Okay. So you know, you can like pick a Mo pick a moment in time, maybe when, maybe when you were a hairdresser or, or, or, or however you want to pick. Okay. So here it is. Someone comes up to you at, to party and they ask what you do. Well, what are you going to talk about first? I’ll tell you what you’re going to talk about. You’re going to talk about in some way or another your tasks, the output of your work. I would’ve said I’m a newspaper reporter. What I do is I, I report the news and it goes in the newspaper. So somebody comes up to you to party, Kristen, they ask what you do.

Kristen Boss (24:52):  Yeah. I would’ve said, oh, I’m a, I’m a hair stylist. And I, you know, style, style, people’s hair, cutting color hair. And it’s great. Love it.

Jason Feifer (24:59):  Great. Awesome. Okay. Running the scenario again, someone comes up to you to party and they ask what you do. You can’t say anything that you just said, so your tasks are now off the table. So what are you going to talk about? I think that the first thing that comes to mind is you’re going to talk about your skills, right? We’re kind of stripping the layers down here. So if I was a, you know, if I, when I was a newspaper reporter, I would’ve said, well I’m really good at going out and gathering information and then processing that information so that it’s useful to people. That’s my skills. What would you say?

Kristen Boss (25:27):  Yeah, I would say, well, I take into account, you know someone’s personality. What makes them tick, who they are, their color schemes, their tone, and all those things. And I enhance their natural beauty and help them feel more, more themselves. Perfect.

Jason Feifer (25:42):  Yep. Love it. All right. One more time. Someone comes up to you to party and they ask what you do. Can’t talk about your tasks. Can’t talk about your skills, right? Everything that you just said off the table. So at this point, what on earth are we going to talk about? Now? We are forced to confront what our core is. What is the thing that is so deep inside of us, that it drove us to develop the skills that enabled us to do the tasks that if we can define it is the thing that we need to always keep in mind. So I suggest spending some time. You don’t have to have it. It would be fascinating if you have an answer right now, I’d love to hear it. But for anyone listening, spend some time, try to come up with a single sentence can be real short.

Jason Feifer (26:24):  It should not. That sentence should not include anything that is easily changeable, right? so so it should not, it should not be, it should not. It should not include hair. It should not include styling. It should not include a location. Right? Any of that is changeable. What is the thing that is so core to you? That nothing changes. I’ll tell you the answer for me. I came to this, this sentence. I tell stories in my own voice. So two important components to that, I tell stories, not newspaper stories, not magazine stories, not podcast stories. Take one of these things away from me. I still have infinite ways to tell stories in my own voice. Now I’m setting the terms for how I’m going to do it. I’m not telling somebody I’m not doing somebody else’s voice. I’m not working at a company where my job is to just kind of carry the ball and not have a major impact. I tell stories in my own voice that right there can fuel endless options. So when I think, well, what would I be doing if I wasn’t doing this? The answer is I would be telling stories in my own voice in some other way. What, what do you think?

Kristen Boss (27:28):  And mine and mine was like, as soon as you said the biggest smile on my face, I’m like, oh my gosh, this was, this was my pivot into coaching and being a, being a podcaster and speaker, it was just like, I create transformation to help people be the best version of themselves.

Jason Feifer (27:44):  Love it, love it, because that is it’s specific, but it also can be articulated in endless ways. Like, you know, we’re value, you know, you’re value to people.

Kristen Boss (27:55):  Yeah. It’s like, I’ve, I’ve realized I’ve always been in the business of transformation. my whole life. So I’m like, transformation just looked different when I was a hair stylist. When I, you know, did a thousand weddings with brides when I like, but it still was, there was always the human element of transformation in helping someone be the better, like them feeling their best period. Right. That was really it. I was like, oh, that’s the core work. That is the core work.

Jason Feifer (28:22):  Yeah. And, and now that you know that you feel emboldened, but you also are not afraid of when one thing that you do doesn’t work anymore. Right? Because, because everything that you do is simply a modern articulation of your core. So if tomorrow, for some reason the entire world decides that they hate podcasts. It doesn’t matter. I mean, it sucks. You got to find some other thing to, you know, some other way to connect with people and some other way to deliver value, but it doesn’t mean that your value disappears. It just means that one articulation of that value disappeared. And then you could just find others.

Kristen Boss (28:58):  Yeah. Or one avenue of delivery. And this is something I talk with my clients often is like creating, creating emotional and mental safety while you are going for your goals. And while you are doing big, extraordinary things. And if we are only finding our safety in like our tasks and what we do, like I am a hair stylist, or I sell these products online. If that is the, your only concept of safety, when there is a change, suddenly we have a loss of self loss of like, the panic feels a lot bigger. Now we’re now instead of having like an entrepreneurial opportunity, now we’re having an existential crisis. Yes. Cause I don’t know who I am. Because now my IDs on the line, instead of not a problem, I know who I am. And there are now infinite possibilities. This one avenue has been shut down. So our, our, even our sense of like how I take care of myself and you know, our security that doesn’t feel like it’s on the line anymore. When we no longer are attached, like, you know, our safety to what we do, the tasks

Jason Feifer (29:57):  Totally, that’s exactly right. And that’s the whole point of this is to identify what changes and what does not. Because when we feel like everything changes, it is disorienting. But when we know what doesn’t, when we, we sort of can separate the flag from the flag pole when we know what part of us is the flag pole, then it doesn’t matter what wind, what, what direction the wind is blowing because we know what part of us is always grounded.

Kristen Boss (30:21):  And I feel like it also makes us more emboldened to take risks and go for failure. Because it’s like, it’s just this one avenue that won’t work. but I know I’m still me. There are these still core values. I just need to find another avenue instead of like, oh, there’s this only one way to do this. And if it doesn’t work, then we’re all this like sense of doom. Like this is terrible. Right?

Jason Feifer (30:43):  Yeah. And it gives you, it gives you something to build upon. Which so I, another thing that I absorbed from entrepreneurs is a difference in what I came to think of as the difference between horizontal thinking and vertical thinking. So check this out. When I, this book that’s coming out now called Build for Tomorrow is, is, is my first book with my name solo on it. I, I had a book before that I wrote with my wife. It was totally different. It was a romantic comedy. Like we wrote a romantic comedy to get, not expect that. I know you didn’t expect it at all. Nobody love it. Yeah. So it was, it was a crazy idea for a plot that I had in my twenties that that I married a novelist and we decided to do this thing together. And it took many, many years.

Jason Feifer (31:27):  And by the time that it came out, it was called Mr. Nice guy. By the time it came out. Mr. Nice guy was it was 2018. I was editor in chief of entrepreneur magazine and, and so I started to get these dual reactions to people when I would tell them that I’ve got this romantic comedy coming out. my writer, friends, my media friends. They would all say, congratulations. That’s awesome. Whoa, you sold that. You sold that novel. That’s so cool. And then entrepreneurs would say, so what are you going to do with that?

Jason Feifer (32:02):  You know? Yeah. and, and I came to real and at first I was like, what do you mean, what am I going to do with it? But then I, then I came to realize that entrepreneurs have trained their brains to think vertically, which is to say the only reason to do something is because it is a foundation upon which the next thing is built. Right. Which is very different from the way that everyone else thinks. So I had come from media that was horizontal thinking. I make one thing I put out in the world, I move on to the next thing. I put that into the world. I move out to the next thing I put that they didn’t build upon themselves. I was not accumulating things. I wasn’t accumulating a coherent set of experiences. I wasn’t coherent a coherent network. I was just spreading thin and entrepreneurs don’t do that.

Jason Feifer (32:50):  Entrepreneurs build. They say, I’m going to do this. And then upon that, I will build this. And then upon that, I will build this because I have a direction that I’m going that direction could change. That’s fine. Because the things that I’m learning along the way are going to be able to be utilized in all sorts of other ways that I don’t even know, but I know that I need to build something coherent. Right. And this is, this goes back to what you were talking about a minute ago, that when you identify your core value, what you’re really doing is you’re giving yourself a foundation and you’re giving yourself something to work towards. And now you can build vertically, you can stack experiences, you can start to filter. This is worth my time. This is not worth my time. And that is so unbelievably critical. Me absorbing that completely changed the way that I think about my work.

Kristen Boss (33:30):  I love that. Would you say, I’m curious, you know, you have the four phases of change, panic adapt, new normal, never go back. Where do you think we are collectively like as entrepreneurs? Like, do you feel like we’re still in the ad, like new normal phase or adapting phase? Like where would you say, like you’re seeing us now?

Jason Feifer (33:51):  Well, it’s a tricky thing to say collectively. And the reason is because everyone goes through these things at different times, but also because of the maddening cycle of this right. Because once get, once you get to, wouldn’t go back. You’re not like there for, it’s not like it’s not like winning a video game, you know, or being at the end of a video game. Right. It’s like, it’s not like you defeated Bower and now you’re just like chilling. Instead getting to wouldn’t go back is just is just the, the first stop before panic, because yes at that. Because at that point, you know, you’ve got something that’s great. It took a long time and a lot of tears to get there and you want to hold onto it. Which means that when change comes again, as it shell, you’re going to say, what the hell?

Jason Feifer (34:33):  Right? Like, I don’t now I don’t want to lose this and you’re going to go through this over and over and over again. I mean, where are we right now? I think that, I think that a lot of really adaptable people got to a kind of new normal or wouldn’t go back and now they are either feeling like they’re starting over, or they’re very afraid that they’re going to have to start over as, as the economy does unpredictable things as consumer spending is crazy as, as, as, as interest rates rise up as supply chain issues continue to, to baffle people. You know, we feel like, oh no, I need to make another change. But you know what, if you reframe that and you say needing to make another change means really that there are new sets of needs out there that there are new things that people need.

Jason Feifer (35:24):  There are new problems to solve and the hero will be the person who can step up and identify what that is and solve that because you know what, nobody needs you to solve a problem that is old, right? Like nobody, nobody needs. Right. There’s a, I can’t remember the movie where the guy was like you know, there was, they’re used to there at some point there was one company that made the best buggy whips, right? Like they made the best buggy whips, but you know, nobody needed them anymore. So it doesn’t matter how good your buggy whip is. And the same is true here. Like it’s great that you built something and even if it required lots of change and it was, and it was really valuable to people. And, and I would say that if you’re in that moment where you have built something new, you’ve gone through some kind of change.

Jason Feifer (36:09):  And now you’re worried about some instability forcing you to change. Again, the way to see that better is because of the position that you’re in. You have the unfair advantage that you get to see what’s coming next, faster than others. Cause you’re on the front lines of it. You’re seeing what is working and importantly, what is not working right. You’re, you’re working with your consumers. You have insights into what they need now that others don’t because they’re further back than you are. So even though it feels like a kind of failure is looming, that failure is actually just tremendous data. And then you can use that data to actually build what’s next.

Kristen Boss (36:48):  And I think it’s important to almost circle back to this concept of like, were you assigning your success to circumstances or were you looking at the evidence of, this is who I was. These were the decisions I made. These were the skills I brought and I can still make decisions like that still have the same. I still have the same skill sets. I still am that same person. Because if you believe like, again, my circumstance created my success. Then you also see the change of circumstances and thinking here comes my failure here comes my doom. Like if success can happen to me, then my doom can happen to me too. Instead of here I am with a new set of circumstances with all of the opportunity and my options to bring similar skills, just a different set of decisions to this new set of circumstances.

Kristen Boss (37:31):  And it becomes less looming. It becomes more, you, it, in some ways for me, I think you’re working more with facts, like, okay, circumstances feel uncertain, but what do I know? That’s true of me. And like what helps me sometimes. And when I coach my, my students is I’m like, well, let’s look at your past data. Like when have you had other unforeseen circumstances and what have you done? And were you okay? Yep. I was okay. Yep. I was okay. Okay. So why would it be different this time? And actually you have more knowledge in your, in your tool bag this time. So it’s, it kind of takes the, oh my God. Oh no. There’s, you know, this looming impending, I’m about to have to change again, instead of like, I’ve, I’ve done change before I can do it again. And it might actually work out in my favor again.

Jason Feifer (38:15):  I think people get fixated on what is not available to them.

Kristen Boss (38:20):  Yes.

Jason Feifer (38:21):  You know something that I realized I, I did, I don’t think that I did this consciously at the time, but then I looked back on it and I thought, oh, well, this is the thought process that I did. That was really, really useful. I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you a quick story. So my very first job was at the gardener news, a community newspaper in north central, Massachusetts covering nothing, covering nothing, right? Like what was going on? You know, I was like writing stories about the middle school dance and the, and the local diners. And what I really, really wanted to do was I wanted to write for the largest publications possible writing important things. I didn’t know what it was. I, I was fresh out of college. I couldn’t have told you, but I knew that I wanted something more and I wanted something bigger.

Jason Feifer (39:03):  And I was very, very frustrated with what I had in front of me. And as a result, I will be honest with you. I was like a jerk, right? Like I was just a total jerk. I like showed up at this office and I was acting, I was there for a year. I was acting like I was way too good for this place. Of course. You know, in retrospect, that’s not true because if I was too good for there, then I wouldn’t have been there. But I was, so I had lots of things to learn. And anyway, I, I came to, I came to look at my situation and I was like, how do I, how do I change this? Right. I feel stuck. How do I change this? And I, and I broke it down into three things. What I have, what I need what’s available.

Jason Feifer (39:43):  Right. Not, what’s not available. Doesn’t matter. What’s not available to me. Right. a job at the New York times not available. So instead of sitting around every day being like, why don’t I have a job at the New York times? Let’s why don’t we focus on what I have, what I need what’s available. So here is here. Here’s how I thought about it. Here’s what I have. I have a job it’s at the bottom of the ladder means I’m surrounded by people who are also at the bottom and they can’t help pull me up. So that’s what I have. Okay. What do I need? Well, what I need, isn’t like a cool job that, that jumps it. What I really need is I need to learn from better writers and editors. That’s what I need. Right. I need to grow myself. So and frankly, I need evidence that I have the ability to do that, that I can then go take to other people so that I can convince future employers or employers or, or whoever that I have, what it takes to work at their level, because I don’t have that right now, working at this tiny little paper what’s available.

Jason Feifer (40:39):   That is what’s most important. So what is available? Well, okay. Being hired at a place that’s not available having a magic mentor come down from the sky is not available, right? Like a lot of people seem to think that that’s the shortcut. I I’m sure you get these. Yes. All I get them all the time. Right. Somebody will email me out of nowhere. It’ll be like a LinkedIn request. And it’ll be like, can you be my mentor? I’m sorry. I can’t, I don’t know you. I don’t have the time for this. Right? Like it’s not mentors is not, they’re not like, they’re not like they’re not jobs that you can hire someone for. So that’s not what’s available. What’s available to me. Well, I realize the answer is freelancing. So in media you can either work for a place and write, or you can freelance, you can pitch individual stories to publications.

Jason Feifer (41:21):  And if they like your story and you convince them that you’re qualified to write that story, they’ll let you write the story. And then at that point you have a clip. You have something to show people. And I thought, well, this I have, because I know how to come up with ideas. And I know how to track people down. And I know how to write an email and I can do. And so that’s what I did. That was what was available. And through freelancing, I quit my job. I quit that newspaper job. I sat in my bedroom for nine months looking out of a grave looking out like on a graveyard. I was living in this dumpy apartment in this dumpy town in central Massachusetts. And and I pitched and I pitched and I pitched and I eventually landed some pieces. And those pieces helped convince future employers that I was somebody worth hiring. And that’s how I got my career start. And that it’s worth breaking that down whenever you’re facing this, what do you have? What do you need realistically? And what’s available.

Kristen Boss (42:09):  Those are power questions. And I love that. And I know there are certain times in my life where I ask myself the same questions. There’s another question I, I always go to as well, because I, I notice, especially with, you know, my students and people, I coach, we also love to sit with what we don’t know. Like, I can’t tell you how often, if I say, what are you going to do about that? And people just say, I don’t know. I don’t know. And they’re just stuck in the land of confusion and they, I don’t know. And so it always starts helps to start with, well, what do you know, what feels like effect to you? What are you aware of? And then before moving into, because our brain isn’t efficient when we’re in the land of confusion, like our brain is actually quite useless, but it’s like, well, what starting with, well, what do I know? What, what do I know is again, available to me? What do I know? Like, what do I need and what do I have again, starting with like certain instead of like grappling out with the impossible or like what feels magical yeah. Right. No, what do you know? What feels certain to you? What are the facts? I like, that’s a powerful question too, is like, what are the facts? Because we know a lot of stories, but it’s like, hold on. Let’s get very clear. Yeah. What are the facts,

Jason Feifer (43:11):  Right? Yes. here’s another way to think about it. I love this. So I, I was talking to Jim Kel, he’s the co-founder of square, you know, like the square reader. Right. like for, for anyone who you’ve seen it, maybe you don’t know the name of it.

Kristen Boss (43:25):  When I was a hairstylist that was my POS

Jason Feifer (43:27):  Oh yeah.

Kristen Boss (43:28):  That was my main system.

Jason Feifer (43:29):  Of course it was right. So, so I’m sure everyone knows, but for like the, you know, three people who don’t, it’s basically that like, that like inch square thing that you plug into a device, an iPhone or whatever, and it allows you to scan a credit card. Okay. So, so Jim was telling me that when they came out with the square reader, I mean, this thing was revolutionary because it allowed small businesses to take credit cards, which was, which was inaccessible to them before, for all sorts of reasons, because of the, because of the fees and because of the, the equipment. And anyway, so now it was a game changer and so consumers loved it. Small businesses, loved it. Competitors thought, oh, well, that’s smart. I should release something like that. And so there were, there was a rush to release competitors to the square reader and, and they almost all failed.

Jason Feifer (44:14):  And the reason Jim said was because, although it seemed like the innovation here was hardware, or rather the innovation seemed like it was hardware, but really it was these 14 other things that they had done in their innovation stack. It was all the relationships that they had built with credit card processors. It was the technology, whatever it was. Right. So, anyway, what’s really important in that explanation was the phrase, but really. It seemed like the innovation was the hardware, but really it was these 14 other things that they did. Right. Everyone else thought the innovation was the hardware. Jim understood what it really was. But really, and you know, you’re talking about how people can identify the thing that was most useful to an experience or what is, what are the actual facts of the, of, of what they’re going through. And the answer really comes down to, can you make a list of, but reallys, right?

Jason Feifer (45:11):  I’m doing this, but really it’s teaching me that. Right. I just went through this, but really I came away understanding this, like, the more that you have your, but reallys, the more that you can identify, the thing that you know, that other people don’t, and what is foundational about the experience that you just had, because that’s the stuff that you can really build from everything before is the stuff that’s visible to people that maybe you don’t even understand why the hell it worked, but if you can get to the butt, really, if you understand a level deeper than everybody else about what it is that you do and why you do it. Right. I, I worked, I worked at a crappy newspaper out of college, but really it taught me how to think about how to plot my career. That that’s what matters, right? Yeah. That’s how you do it.

Kristen Boss (45:58):  I love that question so much. And it offers a really powerful reframe and it, it, you can literally view any circumstance, any part of your business through the lens of yes, this happened, but really this is what I learned from it. And it, it puts you in a place of empowerment instead of victim. Like that happened to me. And then I, I also, I use the butt reallys and I also like to ask, and then what, like, I like always forcing my brain to go a step beyond that. Like, and then what, and then what, and then what just always just forcing the brain to go beyond the lazy stories that loves to offer us, because our brain doesn’t like to expend the calories and problem solving and thinking at a higher level, but asking yourself, but really, and then what, those are huge questions to ask yourself when you’re evaluating any situation in your business. And I think it’s powerful to have.

Jason Feifer (46:45):  Yeah. I’ll tell you a quick story. So there is a woman named Lena who runs a wig shop in Baltimore, Alina’s wigs, and it operated like a storefront. You know, how a storefront works, people walk in and that’s a, that’s a storefront. They walk in, they shop. And then the pandemic arrives and Lena is not able to operate her storefront as she was before people cannot walk in up the street anymore. And she doesn’t know what to do. How do you, how do you serve people? And so she comes to comes to realize that the best and only option is appointment only now appointment only, not the most revolutionary idea that anyone’s ever heard of. Elena was certainly aware of it, right? It didn’t like a, you didn’t need like a, like a fish monster to spring from the sea and be like appointment only, right?

Jason Feifer (47:35):  Like this is a thing people know. But Lena had never considered this before. And the reason for this was because she very reasonably didn’t want to add friction to her business. Why would you make it harder for people to shop with you? And therefore appointment only always seemed like a terrible idea, but she had to do it. So she did and to her great shock and then delight two important things happen. Number one, sales and profits rose. And number two, her customers were happy, happier. Why? Well, here’s why, because when she moved to appointment only she no longer welcomed in the rans who walked in off the street. Lena in fact had been employing someone to greet these random people who walked in off the street, but you know who doesn’t buy wigs, random people off the street. they don’t, they’re, they’re, they’re interested in browsing wigs, who doesn’t like a good wig but they’re not the buyer.

Jason Feifer (48:36):  The buyer for Lena was in fact, people who are buying wigs generally for health or religious purposes. These are not people who want to come in and try on wigs with a bunch of random people off the street. In fact, these people would love, love an appointment so that they can come in and have a personalized experience without a bunch of rans. So Lena now no longer had to employ someone to greet the people who were not her customer. And she had more time to focus on exactly serving her customer in the way that they wanted. And this was powerful. There are all sorts of things that I love about this story. One of them is that Lena did this thing that I said earlier, she reconsidered the impossible. She, it was an idea appointment only. It wasn’t some radical idea. It was something that she just thought was impossible.

Jason Feifer (49:22):  She was forced to reconsider it. She discovered that it was actually a better way to run her business, but also it gave her the butt really, you know, I mean, it gave her the more important way to think about her work, which is like, I run a storefront, but really what I do is I provide a very intimate experience for people who need it. And once you have that, well, you say, well, then the storefront part of this equation is not nearly as important as the, but really part of this equation. And now I can start to navigate how I can better serve people, because I have this insight that I didn’t have before. And you don’t get there until you push yourself or you are forced into it, which is the reason why sometimes disruptive experiences can in fact be the greatest learning opportunity.

Kristen Boss (50:06):  I love the story of Lena, just realizing like, oh, okay. At first it felt like a point of friction for her. It felt like, oh, this could be an inconvenience. But what was so interesting is like her perception, her initial initial perception of inconvenience became the buyer’s perception of value. Yes. Like the buyer, the buyer was like, this sounds like an upgraded experience. This sounds like something that is even better. So I, I love that story because oftentimes we can’t trust the narrative or the story. Our brain first off offers us like that’s too much friction. That’s an inconvenience that that’s not going to work and also looking. But what if it does, what might be the other perception or the other angle? I am not seeing what might be the perception of the buyer that my brain is not allowing me to see right now because I’m in a panic state or I’m like, and also in the panic state, we’re not innovating well, we’re Al we’re very much in the perception of inconvenience, impossibility, irritability, maybe all the eyes instead of like okay. But maybe there’s an opportunity for perception of value here. And so that story is, I mean, between all the stories you’ve given to me and these amazing, like I think my audience is probably going to listen to this story to this podcast multiple times. And I feel like they’re hearing it from someone other than me. I’m like, see, see guys, listen, Jason, know what is what he’s talking about.

Jason Feifer (51:23):  Yeah. It’s totally helpful. It’s it’s it’s you need, you need to, right. It’s true. Well, look, it’s, it’s so funny. People say versions of that to me all the time, because it’s just so helpful to have ideas like validated and or, and heard in different ways. You know,, it’s so funny because a lot of the things that you and I have been talking about for the last hour are not you know, that they, they weren’t invented five minutes ago, right? That there, there are fundamental concepts about how to think about yourself and your value. And ultimately you have to find the way in which it sticks in your head, right? Sometimes you and I, I I’m sure we’ve, we’ve heard the same idea expressed multiple ways, but at some point you, somebody has some experience or somebody says it in a way that you say, aha, now I totally get it.

Jason Feifer (52:10):  Now I can remember it. Now I can see how it applies to me. And sometimes having these kinds of conversations and, and people should not just listen to this over and over again though, please by all means hello, if you’re listening for the third time. But but, but also have these kinds of conversations with other people, right? Like take, take what you’ve absorbed here and then bounce it off of other people. Because I have found for myself that sometimes things really click for me when I’m verbalizing it. I mean, I’ve told that Leno’s wig story a whole ton of times, but, but I tell it in different ways, ways for different reasons. And what I find is that sometimes, sometimes I’ll be telling this story and I’ll realize, oh my gosh, the lesson of this is actually totally different than I thought before. And now it helps me see a different way of providing value or understanding it, it, it’s all about absorbing and verbalizing and bouncing these ideas back and forth until you really see how they, how they matter to you.

Kristen Boss (53:02):  Yeah. And I always say message repetition as message saturation. If I hear it enough, enough over and over many different times forwards and backwards and sideways and under is like, I might just hear it in a different time or it resonates differently in a different season of business. And like, like you even said, we’re not talking, we’re not developing brand new concepts. These are very simple and profound. These are human, human concepts. And they’re very founded by psychology and just the human experience. But sometimes we just need to hear it in different ways. So I’m just going to encourage my audience. They’ll get on your pre-order list. You have a pre-order list for your book.

Jason Feifer (53:37):  I do. Yes. Perfect.

Kristen Boss (53:38):  We’ll put that in the show notes, tell my people, get it because I think this is just, this is so relevant. And I really love that just to emphasize that you’re like, it’s a cycle we’re going to like never go back is the precursor right before panic. Like we’re always innovating and understanding that it’s a cycle. And as I love Simon, cenek always says like, we play the infinite game. And especially as an entrepreneur, we’re never there. We never arrive. And I do think sometimes that’s a painful lesson realizing, oh, I’m never actually going to arrive. There is no end point. Like I’m always going to be opting in for growth and op therefore opting in to this cycle of panic, adapt, find the new normal. And then you’re never go back moment. So I think my audience is just going to absolutely love this episode. Love your book. I can’t wait to share it with them. It’s been so great having you on.

Jason Feifer (54:25):  It’s been so great talking to you. I, I will just add one, one final thing, which is, you know, you’re talking about that cycle that we get stuck in yeah. Is an opportunity to make this one different. And here’s how, because this one can be the conscious cycle, which is to say it can be the one where you track you are, you are aware of whether you just track it in your mind or you actually start to take notes and you can follow yourself as you go through this cycle, as you go through the panic and you adapt and you find it normal and you get to wouldn’t go back. And the reason for that is so that in the future, when it happens to you again, you can, without nostalgia, without imagination, you can go back and you can say, aha. I remember when this happened before I remember how I got through it and therefore I can get through it again. That’s the conscious cycle. It’s the one where you’re very aware that it’s happening so that it can become a reference point for later.

Kristen Boss (55:09):  I’m so glad you mentioned that nuance because I do think when we are caught in the subconscious cycle of that, I think that is, I actually think that’s a recipe for burnout in your business. Thinking like my business is doing this to me being an entrepreneur. Maybe I should just quit leave exit where it’s, instead of like, maybe you just, haven’t been a conscious contributor or aware of this very natural and normal cycle of business. And when you’re choosing it, you’re opting in and you are being an agent in it. You have a different experience. Like two people can be in the same cycle, but they will each have a different experience of it. The unconscious person will be in misery, because they’ll be a victim. And then the other person’s like, okay. Yeah, but I’m opting into this. So I love that you brought up that nuance. Totally.

Jason Feifer (55:48):  Totally. Hey, this has been such a fun conversation.

Kristen Boss (55:50):  Oh my gosh. This is great. I love it. Let’s do it again sometime.

Jason Feifer (55:53):  You got it!

Kristen Boss (55:53):  Again, Jason, thank you.

Kristen Boss (56:00):  That wraps up today’s episode. Hey, if you love today’s show, I would love for you to take a minute and give a rating with a review. If you desire to elevate the social selling industry, that means we need more people listening to this message so that they can know it can be done a different way. And if you are ready to join me, it’s time for you to step into the Social Selling Academy, where I give you all the tools, training, and support to help you realize your goals. In the Academy, you get weekly live coaching so that you are never lost or stuck in confusion. Whether you are new in the business or have been in the industry for a while, this is the premier coaching program for the modern network marketer. Go to to learn more.

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